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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
0
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Posted - 2014.02.18 19:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ok, so I will get ready for the flames... But I've read some news articles about how CCP is not attracting the new players needed to keep the game going and is trying to raise revenues through gimmicks like the noble exchange. Personally, I don't care what my toon is wearing. I'm more interested in what is going on outside the station.
I've tried to get new guys involved in the game, and it always comes down to the same problem. There is a massive advantage for people who have been playing for a long time, and also for those who can devote a lot of time to the game. Casual players are going to be at a huge disadvantage. Not a big deal in itself, but the problem is that many players get their jollies by preying on the new players. And fuel their sense of keyboard based superiority by calling them carebears, telling them that Eve is brutal, get over it, etc.
Now if these players roam into lowsec where there is an expectation of being attacked, then sure, that's their fault. But when new players are being bombarded by suicide gankers and war decs in high sec, then they feel like they don't have a place to go where they can learn and build up to the point that they can join in the pvp stuff.
I have friends with a high sec corp. They like to do pve and they don't bother other players. Their corp is specifically listed as a training corp for new players. Someone who is logged into the game 20 hours a day war decced the training corp so he could attack them in high sec. Funny thing is, this person only comes out of station in the nice tech 3 ships he has to attack the players when they are alone. When approached by several of the corps ships, he stays right next to station and docks up as soon as he drops to hull. Won't come out if there are more than 3 or 4 of the corps members online. So while this person overwhelms this corps players when they are alone, the kills get the attention of other corps that act the same way, so a training corp ends up getting multiple war decs in high sec. So their only option is to stay docked up. So they end up paying for a game they can't play because a lot of other players can't get their jollies by "picking on someone their own size" essentially.
And so they are going to get frustrated and leave the game. And it's going to deter new players from ever getting into the game. Is the ease of attacking newer players in high sec worth the game not getting new players? Not every player who could be paying for the game and promoting the development is going to be able to devote the time needed to become a null sec pirate. But these players benefit the game in many ways. Can the game survive if the majority of players are able to play for free by selling plex? Someone without the time to farm isk is going to have to pay actual money for time, and that money is what keeps CCP developing. Is it going to be much fun when driving away new and potential players results in the game dying off?
Ok, let the flaming begin.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
0
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Posted - 2014.02.18 19:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
BuckStrider wrote:Crybaby.
Heheh, about what I expected. Another issue with the game is that a huge number of people on the forums are apparently the shut-in non-working types with no sex lives who derive their entire sense of self worth from their ability to feel superior on a video game. Not any actual reasoned discussion. |
Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
3
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Posted - 2014.02.18 19:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
So what I see is that unless you are already running tech 3 ships or have plenty of corp mates online all the time, you shouldn't really play the game. You can't join a small corp who wants to play casually for an hour or so a couple times a week together and enjoy the group dynamic without being harassed by groups who really can't risk anything more than the "easy kill". No, we shouldn't make any slight changes that would encourage players of a certain level to leave lower level players alone, so perhaps those players develop. Heh, I can see the chunky kid behind the keyboard who got pushed around on the playground thinking he get's his revenge on Eve. And from all I read on these forums, it really is about a fear that the higher level players will lose their easy targets. Can't have that. It's all about risk, right? Just as long as it's the other guy's risk, not yours.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
3
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Posted - 2014.02.18 20:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
No, I was the small, skinny kid who was likely to get pushed around on the playground, so I recognize the type. Though I grew up, joined the military, then became a cop and spent my time trying to stop those jackholes who pray on the weak. I guess that is why I don't like the type I see to often here. The idea of a reward system for being the good guy does appeal to me. |
Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
3
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Posted - 2014.02.18 20:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:Some knowledgeable person should give OP some useful advice on how to beat the wardec problem. That's why the corp isn't enjoying the game-- they don't know how to counter the wardecs.
The problem is, you make suggestions on how to ease it up on the new people and the gangs who can't get by without their easy targets start flaming.
Maybe something along the lines of comparing average skill points of the war deccing corp to the average skill points of the target corp and basing the cost of the dec on that? Right now it's a cheap thing to war dec a corp in high sec and pick off their players running level 3's in their tech 1 ships.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
3
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Posted - 2014.02.18 20:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:They could also hire mercs or use the recruit allies thing. A t3 ship is a pretty shiny target that might attract some people.
From what I am told, they don't have the isk to hire mercs. They don't often have more than 5 or 6 people online at a time, and they don't have the numbers or tech to fight several other players or even 1 T3. But that's the point. People like that who have a low risk to reward incentive. So much talk on here about risk, but so many are only looking to preserve the the risk to reward ratio in their favor. So I'm not talking about doing away with PvP, even in high sec, just adjusting the parameters to make 100mil SP players look at other 100mil sp players rather than 5 mil sp players.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
4
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Posted - 2014.02.18 20:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
SP being a good indicator, especially of ship fits, which is where the real thing comes down. But aside from that, and numbers not being an answer for some people who aren't online a lot or don't have a huge corp, SP gives a basis of comparison.
Like I said, I'm not for ending PvP in high sec, being on my first war kill with some friends against a T3 griefer was about the most fun I've had with my pants on, but it's funny how many people are so petrified of having their options to go after lower level or casual players limited, rater than have to face their peers. Says a lot. |
Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
4
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Posted - 2014.02.18 21:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:If you're going to persist in calling people fat nerds because they play a videogame in a manner you disagree with, then you have completely validated their choice to attack you.
Lighten up on the attitude a little, it's a videogame for crying out loud.
Yeah, it's kind of my play on all the flamers (who started early and predictably), not people who make reasonable posts.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
7
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Posted - 2014.02.18 21:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
Shizuken, the common denominator is that the people who prey on "carebears" will do anything to avoid losing their easy targets. It really isn't about how Eve is designed for PvP, because they aren't satisfied with going after PvPers. Without their easy targets, the people who don't want to play the exact same way as them, with all of their advantages making the risk low for them, they wouldn't play the game if they had to face people on an equal level. I hate WoW and games like that, and these people do too, but for them its because they aren't forced into fighting higher challenges to make rewards. Here they can gank the easy targets.
It really is an amazing game, but that doesn't mean there aren't some issues. But good lord, don't you dare suggest making it harder for high level people to get their easy targets. They wouldn't have anything else to do. |
Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
8
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Posted - 2014.02.18 21:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jared Lennox wrote:Ummmm and here I thought EvE was a PeeVeePee game instead of a risk-free themepark MMO like most of the others on the market already. Highsec's security is overrated. Also for SOME reason, (this one confuses me a lot) people expect a 100% protection when they are living in highsec. Sir you were never so wrong... EvE needs new players yeah but players who are ready, willing to learn, willing to embrace the game mechanics and accepting lasting losses instead of typical Chinese MMO mindset players which, when they die the only thing they have to repair is their armor for x amount of gold. EVE is harsh, EVE is brutal, that's what makes EVE, EVE. Take that, and you will end up in WoW in space.
Deal with it and warn others on this matter. Highsec isn't a risk free zone where CONCORD has to clean up the mess you made. If you can't be keen, alert and careful you will lose stuff like in the other zones of the game. Instead of crying maybe you should have flown a ship which you could afford to lose, cuz sir, when you hit that undock button you are accepting and willing to lose your ship. Sit in the station otherwise and watch some news otherwise... I'm not aiming my sentences directly at you , I'm just generally speaking.
Ok, then how about this: Get rid of ALL pve beyond the tutorials. As soon as you learn that you join a corp and start PvP from then on. No more killing rats. No more wormholes. Nope, not needed. Just join a big corp and go after other people. It's not like there is any reason to play the game except the way you do, right?
Again, it's obvious this all boils down to higher level players that don't want to risk having to face their peers. |
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
9
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Posted - 2014.02.18 22:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:Tippia wrote:So? If they don't like the game, they don't like the game. So what? Well that was exactly Mr. Jones' point, with which you now seem to agree, that but for these mechanics more people would play. Therefore, if they were changed EvE, overall might be more successful. It seems like that is the third thing we have agreed on.
Yeah, but new people need time to develop to stay interested in a game. These people need their easy targets in order to stay interested in the game. That's why there can't be any sort of changes that make it harder to war dec players who weren't bother anyone, make gate camps harder to pull off, etc.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
9
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Posted - 2014.02.18 22:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:You all need to get into ewar ships. Jam their T3s and watch the tears flow.
In fact message me in game if you are under wardec still, I will contract you some ewar hulls with the proviso you send me any local/evemail tears.
LoL, I know, that was my suggestion, but they don't have that available. |
Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
27
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Posted - 2014.02.22 13:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Heh, well, it was the immediate response I expected having read many other posts. You start to see a pattern, and I have seen many of the type. Looks like a struck a nerve ;) Regardless, it was a commentary on those who resort to flaming rather than a reasoned argument. Many of those have been made here, even if I don't agree with many of them.
One thing I noticed is that much of the discussion seems to focus on this idea of skill points. My earlier mention of them, or of being forever behind the players who started earlier, are way off the point. I don't think you should change the skillpoint system, it should take time to get up in level, and choosing and learning the skills is part of the process as you learn the game. And low or null sec is not the issue on this thread, either.
My point is that it is too easy for a few players with advanced ships and modules to prey on carefully chosen small corps of players who haven't developed the skills or ships to be able to effectively defend themselves. In low and null sec, this is not the problem. You go there when you are ready. In high sec it should not be so easy for multiple war decs causing these newer players to have to spend a week or more docked up rather than playing the game. And you can throw all the "they shoulds" around that you want, but the only real option for those players is to dock up because most haven't learned enough about the game to understand or have worked towards the skills and equipment to do anything else.
But reading through these, it is obvious that so many people on here look for any justification to support their attacks on people who can't defend themselves because they can't risk going after people in their own league. |
Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
36
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Posted - 2014.02.24 13:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Interesting watching how far off topic things go here. Divine is obviously focused on the isk and sp issue and while I don't agree with him, I understand his frustration, though I think he's focusing on the wrong issue. I don't think accelerating IP or money for low level players is the answer because it takes time to learn the game. But I do think it's cheap to target him in game just because you don't like what he says or how he says it. The truly strong (and wise) don't feel the need for revenge.
And while I did poke at the flamers, expecting those, I don't think that the majority of the players are rotten people and despite any particular experiment, most people in the world are not. Working the streets as a cop, you learn that it's about 10 percent of the people that make 90 percent of the problems. The trick is to remember that while you keep bumping into those 10 percent in the course of your work (or online), the decent 90 percent are still out there.
But again, the problem is that there are a significant number of those 10 percent who can't face people of their own level, so they harass lower level people and come on line with weak arguments to defend the practice. The way that a corp that is losing a war attracts more and more war decs is a prime example. Not everyone can play the game the way the lifers play. Some people only have an hour or so a week and just want to run a few pve missions with a few friends. They pay into CCP, they lose ships and buy modules from the long term players and contribute quietly. Until they are forced to dock up over and over because the one area of the game that they should have some safety to play their way, not your way, is denied to them due to a broken war deccing system.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
36
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Posted - 2014.02.24 18:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Our new pilots are some of the coolest people I've met in Eve. To greatly mitigate the chance that they leave Eve, I say the following thing when I mentor them starting out; Avoid the forums like a rabid, anthrax covered weasel.
Awesome! |
Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
37
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Posted - 2014.02.25 01:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Karon Grandolf wrote:EVE needs a steady influx of new players. Extend the question to whether high sec war mechanics aid or counteract the need for new players......
Well said, a better way of explaining my point.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
38
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Posted - 2014.02.26 12:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
Geez, why do you people keep responding to him??
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
38
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Posted - 2014.02.26 20:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Manifest wrote:Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:Ok, so I will get ready for the flames... But I've read some news articles about how CCP is not attracting the new players needed to keep the game going and is trying to raise revenues through gimmicks like the noble exchange. I'm not sure which news articles you are referring to, but they are grossly misinformed and/or maybe just making guesses? We are getting lots of new players and lots of returning players (especially since B-R5RB) and continue our upward trend in subscribers we've had for 11 years. Shoot me over some links via EVE Mail and I might be able to set the record straight with them....
I am recalling articles I've read in the past, the one specifically talking about the noble exchange, and there was something about the riots, and perhaps these were old. But it was the sense I got from talking to some of my friends online and off about the game. I started Eve about 4 years ago, left for a bit, came back, the usual story. But talking with some friends it seemed their frustration is that they don't have the resources for losing a lot of ships, and when they try to combat a small griefer corp with much better fittings available and several war decs concurrently running on similar small corps, losses start a snowball effect of other similar griefer corps war deccing them, resulting in ever growing numbers of hostile ships so that they can no longer muster the ship replacements or people to counter the first war and the additional ones, and they don't have the experienced players to know how to handle things or use different tactics, or whatever. So eventually they just end up having to button up and wait out the time. And some end up figuring it's not worth the monthly charge for something they liked to play a few hours per week.
But the overwhelming response (aside from many who may agree with me but don't post due to the abuse) seems to have been- Learn how to play our way and only our way, do it quickly, know exactly which corp to join that will teach you our way to play, do it all as if you've been playing this game for several years within a couple months, or GTFO. Any suggestion that limits easy targets for more advanced players is met by much tearing of hair and condemnation, which I find odd because if something as simple as modifying high sec war dec rules is enough to totally change the way these people play, it appears that newbies are their only viable targets.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
38
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Posted - 2014.02.26 21:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
I agree that giving more SP (or money) is not the answer. Part of the time learning skills is that you practice what you've learned during the time you are learning new stuff.
My thoughts would be something along the lines of to raise the cost of war decs, increasing the cost exponentially for pile on war decs. Someone earlier said something about limiting the number of war decs a corp could have. Not ending war decs, just turning them into less of a griefer tactic. |
Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
39
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Posted - 2014.02.27 13:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
OFFS, why do you people keep responding to him? It's the same stuff over and over. Actually, most of the stuff here is... Meh, later.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
39
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Posted - 2014.02.27 15:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
Karon Grandolf wrote:CCP Manifest wrote:We are getting lots of new players and lots of returning players (especially since B-R5RB) and continue our upward trend in subscribers we've had for 11 years. .....[ Let's be honest, a war can be extremely boring as it limits what you can do safely, and often times involves doing absolutely nothing. And that includes following the advice in this thread. The war environment is a lot of waiting and nothing, and then action in tiny explosive packets. The high sec industrial environment is completely different, with steady progression, the slow work of mining lasers, or the meticulous planning of manufacture. War is explosive, peace glacial. As I said earlier, EVE was great cause it had such great balance between these kinds of game machanics, regardles of mindset there was something fun and rewarding to do. Maybe we should have a war dec mechanic that can prohibit the war deccers from using their weapons for a week, and see how they like being denied their favorite game mechanics. Could it be that the excellent advisors never really spend time or had interest in the cooporative side of high sec PVE side of the game? It will often be stated that EVE is a brutal and unfriendly place, where everyone is out to get everyone else. The high sec PVE, industrial corp is a very different place though. It is a place of cooporation and oftentimes altruism. I suspect that cooporation is equally present in the communities of griefers corps and pirates as well. In some ways it is the balance between these forces played out in EVE that presents such an attraction to me. Once again, balance is the key though. The advice given on how to adapt to war is good. Yes, you can have good fun fighting a war. The problem is not so much the war in itself, but how much of a players game time will be devoted to this, compared to what the player wants to achieve in the game. EVE has one of, if not the best, crafting gameplay in the business. To manufacture in EVE involves handling complexities, and often requires building and using secondary tools like spreadsheets etc. For a tinkerer this is an amazing part of the game. It's even better when this can be done with other players. High Sec Wars limits the access to this part of the game for the very people that enjoy it the most. The problem with war against these players is not the war itself, it's the extend of the wars. Every player is different, but there will be a point where there is too much adapting to war, and too little doing the tinkering. The unlimited number of concurrent wars is a problem for several reasons. They do cost the agressor iskies to maintain. That just means that the wealthy is able to dictate the gaming environment for more players than the unwealthy. If the number of wars is limited, this influence is limited as well. Hopefully a limit to how many corps, or alternatively players can be war decced in high sec at the same time, would result in less undeserving agressions, and relatively more meaningful wars. It is said that your actions in EVE should have consequences, but too often wars come not as a consequence of anything other than simply existing, and rarely do the war deccers recieve any consequences for the agression themselves.
Karon, you should be a diplomat. Very well worded and reasoned.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
39
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Posted - 2014.02.27 19:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
Except that you can still jetcan mine if you want, and people can still can flip.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
40
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Posted - 2014.02.28 13:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Karon Grandolf wrote:I'm not sure about the elephant, if you see it would you be kind to describe it? I think you may be hinting at problems with my proposal, and I would be happy to discuss them if you or anyone else like.
It really is pointless to talk to most of the respondents here over and over again about whether or not there should be changes. Despite the fact that CCP makes changes regularly, they are first and foremost desperate to maintain their ability to go after easy targets. Anything that would limit their ability to do that and encourage them to focus on people in their own league would be unwelcome, probably because their belief in their abilities would crumble in the face of a real challenge.
Rather than this endless debate with the Scott Farkus'es of Eve, perhaps focusing on potential options to improve the system (from the standpoint that changes should be made, for the sake of moving the conversation forward) would be more interesting?
Suggestions of raising the cost of war decs, limiting number of active wars, basing cost on relative average SP, etc?
I also like the idea someone mentioned of having a system mechanic that encourages good behavior. For instance, let's say that Concord patrolled space is overworked, so if your character maintains a certain security level, you are able to purchase special modules and ships from Concord, like an LP store. But anyone mounting these modules can't take them through gates to non Concord space and if you do anything that lowers your sec status below a certain level you get Concorded, destroying those modules and whatever was carrying them. Hoohoo, I bet some people aren't going to like that idea!
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
40
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Posted - 2014.02.28 14:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
Victoria Thorne wrote: The problem that you'll run into here, is that the opposing side believes changes should be made, but changes in the opposite direction.
I have a high-sec corp on one of my characters. If someone declared war on me, and I actually wanted to, I could dodge the war-dec, leave whoever declared war on me short their war-dec fee, and restart my corp shortly afterward. That is so broken.
Personally, if CCP changed war-decs, I'd like to see them fix things like that, before changing the mechanics of who can declare war on who.
That is really not a good tactic. Considering the disruption to the playing and organization and many other corp work that is done. Anyone that uses that as a tactic has more time and money (probably out of game) than people who want to play casually with like minded players who would rather focus on running a couple missions per week or doing industry. |
Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
40
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Posted - 2014.02.28 14:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
Alaekessa wrote: The reward for doing good and helping people is making friends, connections and allies.
How is this any reward at all when a good portion of those "friends, connections and allies" will only be looking to screw you for your weakness kindness?[/quote]
I know the game seems like that a lot, especially here on the forums, but I tend to be the altruistic type and I've run across many others of the same mind, who you could trust to move a billion isk worth of plex for you without needing collateral. I think those are a lot of people who play quietly, help newbies on missions, etc. But the game really is heavily weighted towards being a jackhole. And defending it.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
40
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Posted - 2014.02.28 15:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
VicturusTeSaluto wrote:Are you kidding me OP? Complaining about a single person with a war dec against some noobs?
It used to be that privateers had a war dec against every corp in high sec(go look it up, OP). And suicide ganking used to be much easier.
I havent spent enough time in high sec for any of this to affect me, but it is a major problem of direction with the game always getting safer and safer.
As soon as I had the SP to fit a warp disruptor I was looking for any opportunity for combat, even if it would probably result in my destruction.
I'm not speaking about a single person with a single war dec, but rather speaking out for others that I know in several different and similar cases. So if it was changed, perhaps there was a good reason for it? Perhaps not every player wanted to play in that manner. And is it getting safer and safer in low sec or null sec? Or are you just not getting enough easy targets there?
But congratulations. I guess everyone should have to play like you want to play. |
Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
41
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Posted - 2014.02.28 16:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
No, just saying there are places to go where newbies, vets, anyone can go to play your way. Not everyone should have to play your way. Choice is a good thing.
And as for anyone who thinks that a video game is where you need to "HTFU", I laugh, having walked in RL where you would never dare to tread. Your virtual world tough guy act makes me smile and shake my head. :) |
Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
41
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Posted - 2014.02.28 16:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
If that were true, there would be no High Sec/LowSec/Null Sec. It would all be Null Sec. Obviously it's not the case, if these areas are in place. |
Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
41
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Posted - 2014.02.28 19:23:00 -
[29] - Quote
Zappity wrote:MHayes wrote:Give new players more SP. Give new players a bump in skill training rate after six months of continuous sub.
I'm not a fan of giving bumps, but at least you're offering a possible option rather than HTFU/STFU/GTFO. I think that has more to do with player rewards rather than doing much about letting some players focus on a different style of play from others.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
41
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Posted - 2014.02.28 20:00:00 -
[30] - Quote
I'd really like to know what the devs think about this. From the perspective of gankers, they want high sec griefing to be easier. From the perspective of carebears, they want the high sec griefing to be reduced. I'd figure the devs would be in a much better position to see the effect of it all and give us an idea of if they think changes may or may not be made.
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Oliver Wendel Jones
Covert Civilization
41
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Posted - 2014.02.28 20:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
Oh good grief, it's a matter of perspective. Those who call people carebears because of their style of play would probably call them griefers because of their style of play. Not any official and frankly arbitrary ruling. |
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